March 2010

  • Posted: March 31st, 2010 - 4:38am by Doug Powell

    I try to tell my four daughters – five counting Sorenne but at 15-months-old she’s not on Facebook yet -- don’t put everything on Facebook, someone may actually read it.

    They ignore me, which is the bane of every parent, but I can at least blog about it and then be able to say, it's all fun and games until someone reads your Facebook page.

    A Burger King employee in the Detroit metro area likely regrets making his Facebook messages public after recently warning everyone to stay away from the store he works at because "we spit in your food for sh*ts and giggles."

    "I'm guessing it's cause he was really stressed out, having a bad day at work," said Nick Klingensmith, who works alongside his 21-year-old brother at Burger King.

    He said his brother was just joking.

    "I think he's more scared, he's worried about what's going to happen to him, he don't wanna lose his job," Klingensmith said.

    Customer Carolyn Stevens said,

    "Even if he's joking around if I'm eating something that someone spit in, even if they're joking, I don't want to take that chance."

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  • Posted: March 31st, 2010 - 4:24am by Doug Powell

    I went on a date with my wife last week.

    Not like that new movie, Date Night, which looks horrible, but at 1 p.m., when we have a babysitter. Anything later than that is too tiring to contemplate.

    Being in Kansas, I ordered the mussels from Prince Edward Island (that’s in Canada) and the featured white wine from Australia, which, to our ultimate surprise, cost $15 a glass. The extent to which restaurants will go to rip people off, especially in a crappy economy, apparently knows no bounds. I take responsibility, but won’t be going back.

    I’m also not alone.

    The Washington Post reported yesterday that the expensive "sheep's milk" cheese in a Manhattan market was really made from cow's milk. And a jar of "Sturgeon caviar" was, in fact, Mississippi paddlefish.

    Some honey makers dilute their honey with sugar beets or corn syrup, their competitors say, but still market it as 100 percent pure at a premium price.

    And last year, a Fairfax man was convicted of selling 10 million pounds of cheap, frozen catfish fillets from Vietnam as much more expensive grouper, red snapper and flounder. The fish was bought by national chain retailers, wholesalers and food service companies, and ended up on dinner plates across the country.

    "Food fraud" has been documented in fruit juice, olive oil, spices, vinegar, wine, spirits and maple syrup, and appears to pose a significant problem in the seafood industry. Victims range from the shopper at the local supermarket to multimillion companies, including E&J Gallo and Heinz USA.

    Such deception has been happening since Roman times, but it is getting new attention as more products are imported and a tight economy heightens competition. And the U.S. food industry says federal regulators are not doing enough to combat it.

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  • Posted: March 30th, 2010 - 12:50pm by Doug Powell

    Laura Landro of The Wall Street Journal writes this morning that amid new reports of illnesses linked to raw milk, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Food and Drug Administration are stepping up efforts to warn consumers of the dangers, and urging states to strengthen their regulations to minimize the hazards of raw milk. …

    On Friday, the FDA reported 12 new cases of illness in the Midwest linked to raw milk from a dairy contaminated with a dangerous bacterium, campylobacter

    Kalee Prue, a 29-year old Connecticut mother of one, says she believed in the benefits of raw milk but became ill soon after drinking some purchased at a Whole Foods in Connecticut linked to the E. coli outbreak.

    Ms. Prue says even if there are healthy properties in raw milk, "there are other ways to get the benefits that raw milk has to offer, and it just isn't worth the risk."

    Whole Foods declined comment on Ms. Prue's case.

    Whole Foods, like any other demagogue, sucks when it is questioned, but they sure like the attention when they hold the microphone.

    Sally Fallon Morrell, president of the Weston A. Price Foundation, which promotes the consumption of "nutrient-dense whole foods," including raw milk, says the risks described from the CDC and FDA are "way overblown" and that the there is ample evidence that raw milk has many health properties. .

    At the Grassfields farm in Coopersville, Mich., where 150 families belong to a cow-sharing program called Green Pastures, … it treats infections when they occur with "herbs, homeopathy, tinctures, prayer and vitamins."

    More faith-based food safety.

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  • Posted: March 30th, 2010 - 11:35am by Ben Chapman

    Author: 
    Ben Chapman

    Charleston is an awesome city. I've only been there once (to check out the location of The Real Estate Pros/Flip This House, hoping to run into Richard and Ginger) but I’d go back to visit anytime. One of the draws is that it’s a really cool old town that would be cool to hang out in either before or after a cruise (I can drive there in a few hours and take a cheap, last minute vacation to the Caribbean).

    Ships departing the Charleston port have, according to AP, been hit hard with norovirus outbreaks, with the CDC reporting three straight cruises being linked to hundreds of illnesses.

    The norovirus sickened almost 420 people aboard Celebrity Mercury, which returned to Charleston on March 18. Norovirus symptoms include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and stomach cramps.

    The Mercury then underwent three days of extensive cleaning. There were no problems when the ship sailed on a fourth cruise last week.

    The Celebrity was back in Charleston on Monday preparing to board another cruise.

    On two previous cruises this year, hundreds of passengers were sickened by norovirus on the same ship. The norovirus can spread quickly in close quarters.
     

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  • Posted: March 30th, 2010 - 5:14am by Doug Powell

    caddyshack.jpg

    I really like Amy.

    She’s annoying and neurotic, but no worse than me, and who isn’t?

    So I won’t be going on the annual golf trip with the boys from Guelph. I went last year because it was part of a North Carolina road trip, but took Amy and Sorenne and spent the couple of days doing my best Herb Tarlek impersonation from the television show, WKRP in Cincinnati, with, “I thought we were supposed to bring our wives?”

    When I do golf, I bring my own water, from the municipal tap.

    Three golfers in Clearwater, Florida, have filed a lawsuit against Countryside Country Club, alleging they got sick from club watercoolers that contained "adulterated water." A press release from the Law Office of Tragos & Sartes indicates that the cooler on the golf course's eighth hole was vandalized and contained feces and urine.

    The lawsuit claims that on July 18, 2009, the men were golfing and drank from the water cooler. It was hot, so they said they were "guzzling" the water. Upon noticing an "unnatural taste," one of the plaintiffs opened the container and discovered urine and feces.

    His son immediately "became ill and vomited on the tee box at hole number 8," while he and his father later developed fevers and other symptoms.

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  • Posted: March 30th, 2010 - 4:38am by Doug Powell

    The New Zealand Food Safety Authority is doing something exceedingly proactive: it somehow got the publisher of The Happy Baby Cookbook to initiate a voluntary recall – not of a food but of the cookbook -- because it contained bad food advice for pregnant women.

    Or NZFSA is following what New South Wales, Australia, did a couple of months ago for a book that has been available since Aug. 2009. Regardless, it seems extraordinary that government agencies are calling people on their food safety bullshit.

    A recall is underway for a cookbook containing recipes for pregnant women made with ingredients the New Zealand Food Safety Authority (NZFSA) considers could be harmful in pregnancy.

    NZFSA principal public health advisor Donald Campbell says while it is vital for expectant mothers to eat a nutritious and varied diet, it is important that they know which of the foods they might normally eat may require extra care or be avoided altogether during pregnancy.

    “Hummus for example is packed with protein, but because most hummus is made with tahini which has been associated with Salmonella outbreaks, we recommend that pregnant women don’t eat it.”

    Other foods that are unsuitable for pregnant women to eat include soft cheeses, ready-to-eat foods from delicatessens or smorgasbords, raw fish and shellfish, cold cuts, deli salads, sushi and foods containing raw eggs.

    I can’t wait for my copy of The Happy Baby Cookbook to arrive. Will any other regulatory bodies take action against food safety silliness that can harm people?

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  • Posted: March 30th, 2010 - 4:01am by Doug Powell

    Here are the “simple guidelines” that Ireland has published to prevent little kids from barfing after visiting a petting zoo.

    -Observe farm notices.

    -Avoid consuming unpasteurised products.

    -Avoid tasting animal feedstuffs.

    _Cover all cuts or broken skin with waterproof plasters.

    _Avoid letting your face come into contact with animals.

    _Eat only in designated eating areas.

    _Wash and dry hands after contact with animals or animal feed and before eating and drinking.

    _Ensure that children’s handwashing is supervised by adults.

    _Ensure that children under the age of five are very closely supervised in the presence of any animals.

    _Avoid eating anything off the ground.

    _Avoid putting fingers in your mouth or in the mouths of animals.

    _Avoid touching manure or slurry.

    _Only feed animals under supervision from a farm worker.

    _Pregnant women should avoid handling sheep or lambs.

    _Wash hands and make sure that shoes are free from animal dung when leaving the farm.

    Dr Paul McKeown of the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC) said that adherence to these simple guidelines “will ensure that such cases (of E. coli induced hemolytic uremic syndrome) are kept to a minimum here.”

    I wonder if Dr. McKeown has kids, or has ever seen kids at a petting zoo?

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  • Posted: March 30th, 2010 - 3:37am by Doug Powell

    I’m told everyone experiments in university.

    My experiments consisted of getting married, having kids, and reading The Atlantic and Harper’s magazine. There were other experiments, like with that girl from Kitchener I met on the train from Toronto one time, the girl from Brazil who stalked me, Alison the model, Jo the squash player and Jo the vet, but they’re not fit to discuss in this family publication.

    At some point, both magazines wrote about something I had studied, and I thought the articles were terrible. I don’t read those magazines anymore.

    This is why: The Atlantic offers the Weston Price school of home dentistry up as an expert on whether to experiment with bi-curious raw eggs, stating that if you’re going to eat raw eggs, Rocky Balboa style,

    “the egg MUST be organic and fresh, and you MUST know its origin. Ideally, it comes from your backyard hen house. Alternately, you procure it from a farmer you trust. Salmonella is a serious illness, but it is rarely found in the organic eggs of well-fed, free-range happy hens. Final warning: do not eat commercially-produced, grocery store eggs raw. Ever.”

    The author, Carol Ann Sayle, has no microbiological basis for any of these statements. She also says chickens are in a Zen-state when they lay eggs, which may be like living in a Red State. And she writes with all-caps to emphasize points because her writing alone sucks.

    In this piece of microbiological fantasy, Sayle states

    “Glistening with antiseptic moisture, the egg pops out and falls a couple of inches to the straw. … As the moisture changed to chalk-dry "bloom" (the bloom protects the insides of the egg from bacteria), Jean Luc cracked open the egg, opened his mouth, and tossed in the yolk and white."

    Salmonella can enter directly into the egg, long before it pops out. And will soon be coming out your other end, Jean Luc.

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  • Posted: March 29th, 2010 - 2:46pm by Doug Powell

    When I first met Amy in 2005, I tried to impress her with some mixed tapes – because I’m a total nerd – of music like Weezer, and the Tragically Hip and Neil Young, and Blue Rodeo.

    The later is a Toronto-based band I’ve seen many times, but not as many as Chapman, who has sortofa cult thing going on with them.

    Amy really likes the 1993 Blue Rodeo song, Hasn’t Hit Me Yet, for its evocative nature –I agree the band hit their peak on this album – and it applies to yet another food industry lawyer type who just doesn’t seem to get it.

    One of the Defending Food Safety lawyerly dudes – they represent companies – said today that current statistics confirm that approximately 70 percent (sic) of all food-borne (sic) illnesses (or, about 50 million illnesses annually) have nothing to do with the underlying safety of food. Rather, the majority of illnesses are caused by contamination where food products are prepared. As a result, if consumers and those who handle foods simply wash their hands, and prepare foods appropriately, most food-borne (sic) illness can be eradicated.

    Reference?

    There is none. This is a rhetorical rather than an actual argument based on data.

    The dude also says,

    “… in most instances, (foodborne illness can) be virtually eliminated in the kitchen.”

    People who believe this stuff are stuck in 1993.

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  • Posted: March 29th, 2010 - 1:32pm by Ben Chapman

    Author: 
    Ben Chapman

    I'm not really a fan of oysters, raw or otherwise. The texture kind of bothers me, which is kind of weird because I love clams and mussels (a couple of years ago I toured around parts of New Zealand and sampled some of the green-lipped steamed mussels at a café in a tiny fishing community, right exactly as shown).

    If I did like oysters and wanted to avoid risks associated with the raw type (see here, here and here – note bonus points for happening in months that have an ‘r’ in them), I probably would have leaned towards ordering the steamed variety. Not so much anymore.  A norovirus outbreak (over 280 ill) associated with steamed oysters occurred at a popular Raleigh restaurant, the 42 Street Oyster Bar in December 2009. It has been known for a while (check this 1996 paper out) that steaming oysters (even if the steamers are working properly and get meat temperatures above 160F or so) may not really impact the hardy norovirus.

    Heath officials have found in some incidents that steaming oysters did little for pathogen protection. Depending on the thickness of the shell; density of the meat; and, the length of steam, internal temperature might only be raised to 80F-140F. Steamed oysters may essentially be raw oysters in disguise.

    This week’s food safety infosheet talks all about oyster-related risks, you can download it here.

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  • Posted: March 29th, 2010 - 12:56pm by Doug Powell

    Long before anyone heard of them, Second City TV had a Canadian show on a lousy network. Saturday Night Live was getting rave reviews with a bunch of Second City alumni in the U.S., so many of the Toronto cast-offs got together to form a weekly skit television series that certainly warped the mind of this-then 14-year-old beginning in 1976. Every week, the show began with the tagline,

    “Don't touch that dial! Don't touch that one either! And stop touching yourself! SCTV is on the air!”

    (I also used to bike home from school at lunch and watch Roger Ramjet, a cartoon that was almost certainly written by stoned college kids.)

    A spokesthingy for the Weston A. Price Foundation, promoters of raw milk, and founded by a dentist, said the other day that if people get sick from drinking raw or unpasteurized milk,

    "We just don't see that as an issue.”

    Lots of foods make people sick. Some of these illnesses are easily preventable.

    Below is a table of some of the outbreaks linked to raw milk that an advocacy group just doesn’t care about (aboot).

    http://www.bites.ksu.edu/rawmilk

    Also below is the incredibly talented Harold Ramis, who was only on the first year of SCTV before he went on to co-write Animal House, Ghostbusters, direct Groundhog Day, and now shows up as the stoner dad in any decent movie – Orange County, Knocked Up – with his take on do-it-yourself dentistry. Sorta like do-it-yourself food safety.

     

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  • Posted: March 28th, 2010 - 11:12pm by Doug Powell

    Americans don't get The Tragically Hip, but they seem to like the pop-oriented tunes of Nova Scotia's Sloan when introduced - although no one down here has heard of them.

    The 1996 Sloan song, Autobiography, often comes to mind when I read dribble from the blog, Defending Food Safety, written by some lawyers somewhere.

    When you find you're a conformer
    Take pride and swallow whole
    But if you're trying to climb the ladder
    Don't let people walk over you
    Because that's just what they'll do

    The latest swallow had to do with an entry that begins,

    “It's no secret that virtually all foods are safe if handled properly. Indeed, according to FDA, most food-borne (sic) illnesses are avoidable if consumers follow proper food handling techniques. This is true whether consumers are shopping for products, transporting them home or preparing them in their kitchen."

    I’m not sure what consumers have to do with contaminated peanut butter, pet food, pot pies, frozen pizzas, bagged spinach, carrot juice, lettuce, tomatoes, canned chili sauce, hot peppers and white pepper.

    And I’m not sure where such lawyerly assertions about the source of foodborne illness come from – we’ve written a peer-reviewed article about where foodborne illness happens and argue it’s the wrong question.

     

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  • Posted: March 28th, 2010 - 12:34pm by Doug Powell

    My friend and colleague, Kate, has a dozen ducks out at her Kansas compound.

    Better than my Guelph friend Steve who at one point had 17 horses and still has four kids living at home even though the oldest is 22.

    Kate brought some duck eggs over the other day and I made an omelet with them this fine and sunny Sunday morning.
     

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  • Posted: March 28th, 2010 - 6:59am by Doug Powell

    A young mum has revealed how a veggie burger and portion of chips consumed in Aug. 2009 and contaminated with E. coli O157 almost killed her.

    Abby Alford of Wales on Sunday writes that days after enjoying the chip shop takeaway, desperately ill Karen Morrisroe (right, exactly as shown) had a seizure that temporarily stopped her heart.

    Doctors warned her husband she had a less than 10% chance of survival as she slipped into a coma that was to last for five weeks.

    The recovering 32-year-old has now revealed to Wales on Sunday that she is unable to sue the chip shop that almost claimed her life because the owner was not insured.

    The librarian, who lives with her husband Paul Clutton and baby son Oliver, almost one, in Rhosnesni, Wrexham, said,

    “There’s nothing I can do. He did not have professional liability insurance, but I’ve been told he wasn’t required to have it anyway. Environmental health are looking into legal proceedings, but we don’t know if they can do anything.”

    Karen said her brush with death has had such a deep psychological effect on her that she compulsively checks restaurants’ food hygiene ratings on the Internet before eating out.

    Karen and Paul are also fighting to raise awareness of how dirty premises like the Llay Fish Bar, which was identified as the likely source of the potentially deadly bug, can cost lives.

    “The mind boggles as to how many establishments have zero star ratings but are still allowed to operate,” said Paul.

    Star ratings from zero, the lowest, to five are a hygiene score awarded by environmental health inspectors. The Llay Fish Bar had been awarded zero stars in August 2008 and was due for another inspection when Karen and other customers, including toddler Abigail Hennessey, fell ill.

    Premises given zero stars are generally allowed to remain open while they take steps to improve cleanliness.

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  • Posted: March 27th, 2010 - 10:45pm by Doug Powell

    Who knows what goes on in these petting zoos in the U.K., Canada or the U.S., but it appears to be a mess. That’s why kids get sick every year.

    A feature in tomorrow’s (today’s) Sunday Times alleges that E. coli O157 was found at a popular children’s petting zoo where dead animals were openly left to rot for weeks.

    An undercover reporter who spent several weeks working as a volunteer at the unlicensed zoo discovered:

    - Corpses of animals left to decompose near where visiting children play.

    - Staff alternating between working with the animals and helping out in the visitors’ cafe, wearing the same clothes and shoes.

    - Cafe food stored next to dirty parrot cages.

    - No hot water for handwashing except in the cafe kitchen. One worker said there had been no hot water in the toilets for five years.

    - Animals suffering with painful diseases and fed inappropriate food such as chocolate, lollipops and marshmallows.

    -A swab taken from the faeces of a pig in a petting area showed E coli O157 in laboratory tests.

    Last year several outbreaks at petting zoos across Britain caused a number of children to require medical treatment.

    Tweddle Children’s Animal Farm, which opened in Blackhall Colliery, Co Durham, five years ago, is open seven days a week, all year round, and offers family season tickets to encourage repeat visits. Its website claims it is “bursting with animal fantasticness [sic].”

    The farm has a range of exotic animals, such as monkeys, ostriches, buffalo, camels and lemurs. Yet it has no zoo licence, which is a legal requirement. Only regularly inspected zoos can have a licence.

    The owners, Denise and Peter Wayman, could now be prosecuted under the Zoo Licensing Act and possibly under the Animal Welfare Act.

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  • Posted: March 27th, 2010 - 11:37am by Doug Powell

    "We just don't see that as an issue.”

    That’s what Kathy Kramer, a so-called nutritionist and office manager at the Weston A. Price Foundation in Washington, D.C., told Mike Nichols of the Wisconsin Journal Sentinel Online when he asked, what if people get sick from drinking raw or unpasteurized milk?

    I don’t really care what adults choose to do. I care about what they impose on their kids, and my role is to provide information that may result in fewer people barfing from the food and water they consume. That’s why it’s called barfblog.

    Lots of foods make people sick. Some of these illnesses are easily preventable. For an organization such as Weston Price that is often quoted or cited as some sort of authority on raw milk (or dentistry) to publicly state that people getting sick isn’t an issue demonstrates their priorities – and it doesn’t have much to do with you.

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  • Posted: March 27th, 2010 - 10:50am by Doug Powell

    Five years after a young Fresno, Calif. girl became critically ill following a visit to the Big Fresno Fair, the fair has agreed to pay her more than two-million dollars.

    Angela Malos was just two-years-old when her parents brought her to the fair ... weeks later the child was barely alive. She suffered kidney failure and several strokes. Her family said they are relieved the legal battle is over, but Angela still has lingering health problems.

    Angela Malos was awarded 2.2-million dollars ... 2.15-millon from the fair, and an additional 50-thousand from Port O Sans, that's the company that supplied the hand washing stations.

    Outside court, the attorney representing the fair denied any responsibility.

    Warren Paboojian, Angela Malos' Attorney said, "They paid 2.15-million dollars, they can say what they want. She got the E. coli bacteria at the Fresno Fair and that's why they are paying 2.15-million dollars."

    "The insurance carriers for the fair decided it was in their best interest to settle the case," said Weakley.

    Malos says his daughter is still not back to normal ... Angela has suffered long term effects from the bacteria. She requires additional care, even when she's in school.

    Several other children reported getting sick after visiting the petting zoo, but Angela's injuries were the most severe. Each case is being handled separately.

    The Great American Petting Zoo was also listed in the lawsuit; they have yet to reach any settlement because their insurance company has denied coverage. A judge will have to hear that matter as well.

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  • Posted: March 27th, 2010 - 9:48am by Doug Powell

    A three-year-old girl living in North Point, Hong Kong, was diagnosed with E. coli O157:H7, the first case of the year, so the Centre for Health Protection (CHP) of the Department of Health decided, without providing any details of the how the infection may have happened, that if people cook their food, they could avoid the bug. And they should wash their hands.

    That’s all good, but does little to address cross-contamination issues once the bacterium gets into a residence – if that’s where she contracted the bacterium – and once again sends the message that foodborne illness of the nastiest kind can simply be prevented by consumers.

    It’s a lot more complicated than that, and why everyone should be seeking to reduce pathogen loads from farm-to-fork.

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  • Posted: March 26th, 2010 - 9:28pm by Doug Powell

    That’s the way to celebrate a life.

    The mother was the matriarch of the Weisbender family, 96-year-old Violet, who died March 21, 2010.

    She had nine kids, many who stayed in Manhattan (Kansas). Amy and I have become friendly with a few of those kids as they improved our house, informed us on local politics and hosted the annual Labor Day fish fry where Violet was a fixture and we got introduced to the extended family of, according to latest estimates, 96.

    Amy and Sorenne and I paid our respects down at the Veterans’ Club earlier this evening, dining on pulled pork and beans provided by the Cox Brothers and maintained at a proper temperature.

    Good food, friends, lots of kids.

    Son Russell gave us the blanket that Sorenne is now permanently bonded with. Son Tim, who provided the quote in the headline, also made our day yesterday, by dropping off this handmade sign which now graces our house in Manhattan (Kansas). Notre maisonette en ville -- our cottage in the city.

    Thank you.

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  • Posted: March 25th, 2010 - 5:03pm by Rob Mancini

    Author: 
    Rob Mancini
    The Canadian government is focusing on the importance of food safety for pregnant women.
     
    Health Canada and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency are reminding women who are pregnant of the importance of food safety.
    During pregnancy, both woman and unborn child are at an increased risk for foodborne illness. This is because a woman's immune system is weakened during pregnancy, making it harder to fight off infections. The unborn baby's immune system is also not developed enough to fight off harmful foodborne bacteria. For both mother and baby, foodborne illness can cause serious health problems.
    It's estimated that there are approximately 11 million cases of foodborne illnesses in Canada every year. Many of these illnesses could be prevented by following proper food handling and preparation techniques.
    While it's always important for Canadians to follow proper food safety steps, it's especially important for women to pay close attention to food safety during pregnancy. To protect themselves and their unborn baby, pregnant women should follow the four key steps to food safety: Cook; Clean; Chill and Separate.
    Caution
    Pregnant women should also pay close attention to what they are eating during their pregnancy. Some foods are at a higher risk for foodborne illness than others.
    Make sure to cook hot dogs and deli meats until they are steaming hot before eating them
    Don't eat raw or undercooked meat, poultry and seafood
    Avoid refrigerated smoked fish or seafood
    Avoid unpasteurized juice, cider and milk
    Avoid soft and semi-soft cheeses made from raw or unpasteurized milk
    Avoid refrigerated pâtés and meat spreads.
    Avoid uncooked foods made from raw or unpasteurized eggs.
     
    My wife and I are expecting our first child and when it comes to foods to avoid during pregnancy, my radar is in full gear. I just finished writing a paper, more like an assignment, on the risks of consuming raw sprouts. Sprouts are everywhere and mixed into anything so half of the time one doesn’t even know they are eating them, considered a stealth food.
    Pathogens frequently isolated from raw sprouts include Salmonella, Escherichia coli 0157:H7, Bacillus cereus, Listeria monocytogenes, Yersinia enterocolitica, and Shigella species. Since it is impossible to guarantee a pathogen free sprout product, avoidance is the best measure. Sprouts are mentioned in the list, just have to dig further.
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